Welcome to The Catalyst, an exciting and insightful podcast produced by Northeast Iowa Community College. I'm your host, Lasack. Together, we'll explore the people, programs, and partnerships that make Northeast Iowa Community College unique. From student success stories to behind the scenes info about athletics, innovation and industry collaboration, each episode dives deeper into your community's college. Get ready for an inside look at the impact of community driven education at NICC.
Amy Lasack:Well, hello and welcome everyone. Today's episode is titled Leading with Empathy in a world that often celebrates authority control. We're going to talk about a different path today. We're going to talk about one that's rooted in listening, understanding human connection and it sounds really great, doesn't it? But I'm sure there are things that we can learn today from our guests about what does that really mean?
Amy Lasack:What does it look like? And why is it so important in our workplaces? So today we're going to talk to two leaders. We're going talk to Doctor. Erin Shaw, who has the distinction of being known as the first person to be on the podcast twice.
Amy Lasack:Congratulations Erin. Planning She's project manager at NICC. And we're also welcoming Doctor. Emily Logan. She's the Associate Vice President of Teaching and Learning at NICC.
Amy Lasack:Welcome to both of you. Thank you.
Erin Shaw:Thank you so much.
Amy Lasack:Well, let's first talk about, because I think a lot of people get them confused, what's the difference between sympathy and empathy? Why does that distinction matter when you're working with either a colleague or a student? I'll let either one of you jump in and share.
Erin Shaw:Sure, can go ahead and start. I really like, I will mention Brene Brown a lot, just like I did in my last podcast because I'm a huge fan, But I really like her definition that empathy fuels connection, while sympathy drives disconnection. So if you think of empathy as being with the person, I'm in this with you, and what you're going through and building connection and vulnerability versus sympathy, which is I'm looking down at you or poor you bless your heart, adding that distance and shame between you and them.
Amy Lasack:Let's talk also talk about kindness, which is often compared to or linked with empathy, equals weakness. What are your thoughts on that one?
Emily Logan:Yeah. I like to talk about this a lot. So sort of this misunderstanding that if one is kind, then one must be weak. And I just fundamentally disagree with that. I think kindness is always a choice.
Emily Logan:I think one can always choose to be kind. I think weakness is also a choice, and it is not necessarily tied to kindness. I think as a leader, we are asked and required to do things that are not weak, that it requires strength, and, sometimes a tremendous amount of grit. In fact, I think it's just humans we're required to do that, not just as leaders. But we can always make a choice to do that in a in a relatively kind way.
Emily Logan:I think sometimes because of fear or because of lots of other reasons, we don't know how to do things that are strong or how to do things that are, potentially controversial in a kind way. And it takes a lot of courage to figure out how to do things in a somewhat kind way that can be potentially controversial or, confusing or, impactful in a negative way to people. But I truly believe that kindness does not have to equal weakness, and I truly believe that you can be present with somebody as you're giving them news that maybe is unpleasant, unwanted, all those things and do it in a kind way. Now please know that your intention can be kind. It doesn't mean that the person feels like you're being kind.
Emily Logan:I wanna be clear about that. But I also feel like those are elements that as as leaders and as just as humans, one human to another, we can at least our intentions can be, I'm trying to show up in this moment one human to another and and do this in a kind way.
Amy Lasack:Yeah. I like I like that definition of one human to another, that that line that you use there because that really is at the root of everything we're gonna be talking to today about. Alright. So what are some active listening text techniques that you have found that work to demonstrate that empathy in your communication with with folks?
Emily Logan:Yeah. I think there's some nonverbal things that people can do that are really powerful. Eye contact, other ways just to show people that you're listening to them. It can be nonverbal gestures. Just letting people know that you're with them and you're listening to them, I think, can be really powerful, which is why sometimes it's easier to convey empathy in person rather than over an email.
Emily Logan:And while sometimes the conversation is a lot more powerful and impactful than just sending an email about a topic, especially if it's a sensitive topic. I think verbally too is just making sure checking in that you're understanding people right. You know? Do I understand this right? Do I have this right?
Emily Logan:Asking open ended questions. Those are are also things that I found are really valuable and making sure that you're understanding the person's perspective. And, again, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily agreeing with them. It just means help me understand. Am I understanding what you're saying?
Emily Logan:Am I understanding your perspective here before making an assumption or a judgment that you think you know what it is that they're trying to say?
Amy Lasack:Yeah. Before we go over to you, Erin, you said one little phrase that I use all the time, and it's help me understand because that really does open up the door to allow somebody to share where they are and what they want to get across to you. I love that phrase. I use it all the time. Erin, what are your thoughts on that active listening?
Erin Shaw:Sure I'll just add it's something I'm always working on and trying to get better at but a couple of things that I have done you know Emily mentioned the like nonverbal cues and I think one of the ones that I have used the most is physically changing the position of my body so I'm pointed at the person because talk little tweet because that's something that we don't notice that we're doing. Maybe somebody steps into our office to talk to us and we're just trying to finish an email real quick and we're still at our keyboard and not turning toward them or they are coming to sit sit at a table with us and we're again not physically present with them. So I'm positioning completely moving my body to position so that I'm standing and facing them fully focused on that person. That's one and then same thing with devices so making sure that your phone is away, you've moved your hands off your keyboard, you're turned and fully focused on someone are just some physical cues that you can give them that they have your undivided attention. And that's something I definitely practice.
Erin Shaw:Another one would be just I think just listening for again not thinking about what you're gonna say right that's that's always hard, but trying to not think about what you're gonna say next and really listening to the words that they're telling you and believing what they're saying. That's about it.
Amy Lasack:Well Emily you mentioned this before but in a world today where everything is electronic, it feels like, right? Zoom meetings, emails, sometimes we don't have that luxury of sitting across from someone and showing that empathy. So if you did have to do something via Zoom or did have to do something via email, do you have any tips for folks on what what can they do to still show some of that empathy over those electronic modes of communication?
Emily Logan:Yeah. I mean, I I would pick Zoom or phone personally even over email because at least you can hear tone of voice, inflection, volume, pitch. And then you have the opportunity to clarify meaning in the moment. That's what I like about those those conversations is it can be if there is a misunderstanding or the possibility for misunderstanding, you have opportunity in the moment to clarify. Over email, I think for me, I always just really try to be cautious about the words I use or the phrases I use.
Emily Logan:Or if I think I'm tiptoeing into something that could be more sensitive, I really try to think through, is this the time or the place to bring this up? Or maybe I overthink it. I'm sure plenty of people could say, oh gosh, Emily, you're overthinking that. And please know I'm sure I've gotten it wrong many, many times. But but, you know, if somebody gets an email, and we've all gotten them before, an email from someone and you're like, what the heck are what what are they trying to say to me here?
Emily Logan:Right? And then we end up finding out that it wasn't about that at all, but we just misunderstood it or something like that. It can sit with us for, hours, days, or something like that. And so I think that's where I just try to be really careful, about that because I would never want to make somebody feel that way unintentionally where I was trying to do that. So again, you know, thinking about my mode of communication.
Emily Logan:So I can say, hey. Can I have, like, five minutes quick with you on the phone? Can I have five minutes quick with you over Zoom? And then being really mindful about how I communicate, it I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to take the extra minute and think, what's the best way to communicate this message?
Emily Logan:Because I think it Mhmm. Prevents problems potentially, as it relates to conveying that empathy and understanding and preventing misunderstandings.
Amy Lasack:Yeah. Very valid. Mode, time, place, maybe an email at Friday at 04:15 probably isn't the best time to send that, right, so somebody stews over the weekend. All very valid and important things to think about. So Erin, as we all evolve into leadership roles, one of the things that I always find fascinating is how people pick and choose what sort of leadership qualities that they want to emulate.
Amy Lasack:I'm sure when it comes to empathy, you've had opportunities to learn from others that have shown that empathy to you and it made an impact so that you knew that it was a big part of you. Do you have any instances or examples that you can share that made a real impact to you and and you were like yeah you know what I want to be that type of leader?
Erin Shaw:Well sure I've got two that come to mind as it's two of the most impactful moments and one of them was a vice president for academic affairs in Kansas that I worked with. I was at a statewide meeting and just happened introduce myself to him at the end of a session because I hadn't met him yet in person and I was very new to my role as Vice President for Academic Affairs at the College in Kansas and he took the time it wasn't just a handshake and a hi nice to meet you, he took the time to ask questions and really deeply listen at a level I've never witnessed before where he just truly was with me in the moment eager to learn more about me curious as to what drives me and makes me tick and just the humanity of it. That was the very first time that I had experienced that and that level of listening and so that was extremely impactful on me and it and it did like that one moment not only am I still friends with that person and have grown from his mentorship but it's just something that impacted me so much that I started my journey of trying to become a better listener and a more empathic leader from that single moment really.
Erin Shaw:The other one that was very impactful for me and I had mentioned before that I have Doctor. Wee as a friend and mentor and so many people within NICC are familiar with him and his listening abilities also. He makes you feel very seen and that you're he's very good at validating your feelings. So there's times that over the years I've made him about ten years now and over the years I've gone through a lot of changes in my career and every time he has validated whatever I'm going through really been able to give me strong advice and support and listen to what I'm going through but he also makes you like I said makes you feel so seen and it's hard to explain until you experience it but when you do experience it then the Maya Angelou quote about how people always remember how you make them feel was very true and I just have felt it literally in my life. So those are my two examples that have changed the trajectory of my life and I think to have someone believe in you as strongly as both of those two have throughout my career also really means a lot.
Amy Lasack:Yeah isn't that amazing that how years later you remember those instances and it really does make a huge impact. Emily, these are the types of stories that I absolutely love hearing about to see how it molds. Emily, I'm curious about your stories. What has impacted how you want to emulate a leader?
Emily Logan:Okay. Well, I'm gonna tell you about my dad. So, growing up, my, my dad was a teacher, coach at, the high school that, where we lived. Pretty small place, so everybody knew him. He was coach or mister Logan.
Emily Logan:And, and then he became the guidance counselor. So I didn't get away with anything. K. Let's just get away with anything. And I'm sure you're
Amy Lasack:a good kid anyways, Emily. Sure.
Emily Logan:Yes. We're gonna go with that. And, when I started to go hang out with friends on the weekend nights, which was the thing that you did, you know, back in that era, you were always going out on Friday and Saturday nights. He'd say, hey, Em, remember who you are and what you wanna be. Man, I just hate that.
Emily Logan:I'd hate it
Erin Shaw:when I would
Emily Logan:say that to me before I go out with my friends. Because sometimes I'm just like, well, maybe I just wanna be 15 and I just wanna, you know, be crazy or like, whatever. You know? Come on, dad. And I'd always feel like he'd just make it so serious.
Emily Logan:You know? But he would say it to me consistently, maybe not every time, but I mean, consistently. Remember who you are and what you wanna be. Was preparing for this podcast. I thought about that again.
Emily Logan:I think about him telling me that a lot. And I'll say it is my core values and it is thinking about who am I and what do I want to be that has really guided me throughout all of my career and really all of my life. And to me, when I think about my role models and the people who've invested in me, they were all people who really could see me. You know, see me for like, what are your strengths? Right?
Emily Logan:What are the areas maybe you need some growth, you need some ability to have some challenge, get some extension, right, to have some new experiences. But always could just see, like, who are you and what do you wanna be? Because we all have those just natural gifts about us. And one of the gifts I have is that, you know, I just got a lot of empathy in me. Like, I care a lot about people, and that was just something that I I just got.
Emily Logan:Right? And so for me, I don't know any other way to be a leader, right, than than to lead this way.
Amy Lasack:Yeah.
Emily Logan:And so when I think about what my dad shared with me is, well, remember who you are. It's like, well, this is who I am. And then what do I want to be? Well, I got to find a way to use this. Right?
Emily Logan:I have to find a way to use this because this is who I am. And so for me, I go back to what my dad shared a lot and just that very core part. And then how do I help other people with that? I guess if I would I think about then how do I share that message too is that you just have to be who you are. You know?
Emily Logan:And then you think about what do you wanna be with that and, you know, be the best best version of yourself, the most most of who you are. So I think that's a really powerful a powerful way to help coach people, whether it's in a professional setting or whether I'm talking to one of my kids or something like that. As I think about the role models and the leaders that I've had over the years who've invested in me, I've just appreciated ways that they've pulled that. They've out that of me over the years too.
Amy Lasack:That's fantastic. One of the things I've often thought about too is how do you show that type of empathy when you have to have some of those tough conversations with people? So maybe they aren't performing to the level they need to, or you have to give them tough feedback, or it's a colleague that needs to be, pushed a little bit to help with a project. How do you blend that empathy with some of those tough conversations so that the message that needs to come across doesn't come across so sugarcoated that the message gets lost? So, Emily, I'll start with you, but, I'd love to hear what you have to say about that too.
Emily Logan:Yeah. I I mean, the way I think about this is, you know, when when you think about having a tough conversation with somebody, we oftentimes thinking about, like, sitting across the table from somebody. So just, you know, imagine that. Right? And the way I try to think about it is, yeah, we might be sitting across the table.
Emily Logan:But the way I really try to think about it is sitting alongside somebody. So instead of me looking at somebody and telling them something, what is it? How could it be like I'm sitting alongside them and say, yep, I know this is hard. This is probably hard to hear. You know, no one wants to be told that they're losing their job or nobody wants to be told that their performance isn't matching what's expected.
Emily Logan:I mean, really, nobody wants to hear that. And so how can you or I in that situation come alongside them and say, yep, this isn't where we want it to be. And here's where we are. And so what are our options? Because we can't change where we are.
Emily Logan:We're here now. What are our options? And sometimes there aren't very many options. Sometimes there really is one option, and it's a matter of how we're going to move forward toward that option. And, you know, I think about times where I've had to talk to people about, hey, I'm you know, we're we're eliminating the position.
Emily Logan:And so this is the direction we're going, and we've got options about how we move in that direction. And this is how I hope we can move in that direction together. And that's the direction we're moving. Sometimes it's here's where we are, and here are our options. We can work toward improving performance.
Emily Logan:We can go this way. We can go this way. But, what I really try to think about is just presenting, here's where we are. Here's the options we have available to us, and here's how I want to come alongside and work with you on this. And you gotta be willing to do it from a genuine place.
Emily Logan:So you gotta check yourself. So if you got your own stuff that you gotta work out with that person, then you gotta do that. That's your work to do. So, like, if you're if you're intentionally wishing for terrible things to happen to this person, like, then that's your stuff you gotta figure out before you have that conversation with that person because then that's does that make sense?
Amy Lasack:Yeah.
Emily Logan:You've got to be willing to come to that conversation with some degree of, like, authenticity to say, yes, I'm here human to human. Yes. Whatever this is I'm talking to you about, it's not pleasant. And here is a way that here's a path forward. I'm not trying to minimize how difficult it is.
Emily Logan:Please know. But I found that these these are ways that for me, can be fully present and feel as good as possible about some of these hard conversations I've had to have with people.
Amy Lasack:Yeah. And just a very powerful image of sitting alongside someone while you're having that conversation. I think just keeping that image in your head while you have to have those conversations can really just strongly get you on the right path. That's fantastic. Erin, what are your thoughts on delivering the difficult conversations?
Erin Shaw:I would just add what along with what Emily said is that reflection of how you may have contributed to the situation or the issue and taking that ownership. Yeah. Like she mentioned, you're really having to reflect on your role in that moment and whatever the feedback is about and being able to be vulnerable and share your contributions to it I think you go a long way. Also just trying to understand a little bit like you said Amy with Help Me Understand giving them the chance to explain more. Maybe you think something's happening for a reason but you actually don't understand what's really going on with that person.
Erin Shaw:Maybe there's a lot more and we talk about the empathy iceberg where you can see certain behaviors above the surface. That's the tip of the iceberg and every person has a whole host of other things going on under the surface that they're not going to show you unless they trust you and you create that place for them to have give some honest, you know, insight into what they're going through or maybe what might be impacting what it is. Know, the other thing too that I've been working on and I think I've gotten better at least enough that people say I'm good at it which I don't think I am I think it's still a work in progress but that's trying to like read the room and read read a person and kind of what they're going through and be willing to name what you're seeing might be impacting them. I've heard that in a couple of feedback conversations where they're like, you actually said that and like noticed that before about what I was going through. Thank you so much.
Erin Shaw:You know, so sometimes it's being willing to name other things that you've witnessed that could be dynamics that they're dealing with. Those are a couple of things I'd add.
Amy Lasack:Yeah, all very valid and important things, I think, to think about as you're having those conversations. And I went through a training years ago, and there was one thing that really stuck out to me about when you have to have some of those conversations, it isn't necessarily you standing down and saying, Hey, you need to do this, shaking your finger at them, right? It's more like, I want to have your back. And unless we have this conversation, you know, it's not gonna be a a positive for you to continue to move forward. We wanna we wanna make sure that we can work on this together.
Amy Lasack:And that really stuck with me because it didn't it no longer became a let's have a bad conversation. It's now a conversation together. Right? So, you know, a lot of people may think empathy if it doesn't come naturally for somebody. Right?
Amy Lasack:So, Emily, you talked about this is who I am. This is the only way I know how to lead. Some folks, it it is a little bit more of a work, to get to that point just based off of personalities and other things. But what are your personal non negotiables or boundaries that you set to ensure that, you wanna remain empathetic, but you don't wanna burn out?
Emily Logan:This is a great question. In terms of burning out, I think for me, there's always there's always this this boundary that you have to be willing to have about, I'm willing to see it your way. I'm willing to to try to understand, And we all have jobs to do. We all have responsibilities. There's things that we need to get done.
Emily Logan:So I think it's just clearly having definitions of roles, responsibilities, of expectations of each other that are so important. And so one of the things I really like, especially when we're getting to know each other as professionals is talking about what do we expect of each other? Those kind of conversations can be really helpful because then there isn't confusion about that. So if we know what we expect of each other as colleagues, let's just say, or as friends or whatever that might be, right, then then there isn't that room for this confusion. So for me, boundaries are really about, okay, what are we expecting of each other?
Emily Logan:So I think for me, when you when think about burnout, it's really about maintaining those boundaries. And sometimes we just have to say, you know what? That's for them to figure out. Like, I could swoop in and try to figure that out. I can try to like, I get it.
Emily Logan:I understand. I wanna, like, maybe make it okay. Nope. Nope. That's not my role to make it okay.
Emily Logan:It's my role to say, maybe I see this is what's happening. Is there something I can do to support you? Okay. I'm gonna let you figure that out. So I think boundaries, just being really clear.
Emily Logan:Who's whose job is it to do this? What is my job to do in this situation? And then letting it play out is really important. Boundaries are really tough when you are a highly empathic person because you you you get it. You understand.
Emily Logan:You're like, oh, I can see your point of view so I could just, like, help in this way. No. No. No. No.
Emily Logan:No. So that this is a place I've fallen down all over. All over. And and I think I just continue to, you know, have to keep myself in check. Because it the reality is is that everybody's got a job to do.
Emily Logan:Right? We all have a job to do. We all have a job to do. And just because I understand you're in a tough spot, it doesn't mean that everybody gets a pass. I don't get a pass.
Emily Logan:You don't get a pass. We all got we all got work to do. Burnout also means that there are times where I have to ask for grace. I have to say, you know what? I really would love to get this done, and I wanna get this done for you because I know it would make your life easier.
Emily Logan:I know I promised I would or I know that whatever, and I might let let you down, and that makes me feel crappy or whatever that is. And I just have to say, I'm sorry. I can't do it. And, you know, so I think, again, like, feel that self reflection. Those things are really important for me.
Emily Logan:I know in in preventing burnout and that I are in terms of, like, again, leading with empathy. Like, I if I'm gonna be fully present, if I'm gonna be fully myself, I also have to know that there are times I'm gonna have to say, well, just not sure I can do that. Or I'm gonna have to say, you know what? I really gonna have to let you handle that. Or I think that's really in your sphere.
Emily Logan:That's really for you to manage. And those can be hard conversations too. Sure.
Amy Lasack:Yeah. Yeah. Boundaries so important in lots of different ways. That's great. Erin, what are your thoughts on the burnout and empathy?
Erin Shaw:Sure, I think for me I have personally gone through pretty severe burnout in my career on third year before coming to NICC and it took a long time to recover and so I am hesitant to let myself go back to that place because it was awful and so I think that I really prioritize my health, physical mental and emotional health so my boundaries look more like being very intentional about my planning and my time management, trying to work ahead, trying to work with other people so that we aren't racing deadlines at the last minute and we're not trying to be perfectionistic. Instead you know trying to be as efficient as I can as an employee and staying really organized. So those are ways that they're more personal maybe but those are things that I do with my time and I try to control my time and my schedule, my workload, all of the different elements of it and that helps me get a lot done and still kind of you know meet that internal drive that I have to you know be I want to be a high achiever, I want to do a great job, I want to produce quality work and you know and I like working hard and so those are all parts of it but I can't give all of myself to a career anymore.
Erin Shaw:I just can't do it and so that takes other steps.
Amy Lasack:I think you both in the last couple questions really said kind of the same thing in that you really have to start here. You have to start with yourself, whether it's time management or in a conversation, have to start and understand where you are with that person in that relationship before you enter into those conversations. Such an important message for folks to really just think about who you are and where you are, and that can impact where you go with your empathetic conversations and relationships. Very, very powerful stuff. So, we have some fact or fiction questions for each of you, so if you're willing to play along.
Amy Lasack:All right, Erin, we're going to start with you. So, you are either born with the capacity for empathy or you aren't. It's not a skill you can actually improve. Is that fact or fiction? Fiction.
Amy Lasack:Yes. So, feel like I've heard over and over from you all in the last half hour that it's always a work in progress. You're always working on it. So that's fantastic. Emily, how about empathetic leaders are less effective at making tough decisions because they're too concerned with everyone's feelings?
Emily Logan:Fiction.
Amy Lasack:All right Erin, an empathetic work culture leads to higher retention and psychological safety. Fact. That's a fact, yes.
Erin Shaw:Emily, meeting with empathy means you have to agree with everyone in your team all the time.
Emily Logan:No. That's fiction.
Erin Shaw:Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Emily Logan:Yeah. Empathy is not agreeance. I think that's that's the thing is that you don't it doesn't mean you're agreeing with people. It just means you're understanding their perspective. You're seeing it from their eyes.
Emily Logan:So my favorite color is not gonna ever be red, but I can appreciate why somebody's favorite color is red. Red's cool, but it's just not for me. So that's okay. It's just seeing it through another person's perspective. And thank goodness other people love red, right?
Emily Logan:Because if we didn't have red, that would be a bummer because red's nice to have. So it's just, again, it's just not it doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything. It just means that we can appreciate the difference. We can appreciate that we aren't all gonna see it the same way and that we want those diverse views around the table, especially as we make hard decisions. We really want diverse perspectives around the table because if we're agreeing all the time, chances are good we aren't making all the right decisions.
Emily Logan:Absolutely.
Amy Lasack:You've just made a lot of friends whose favorite color is red. All right. So last one, Erin. You can show empathy via email just as effectively as you can in person. Is that fact or fiction?
Amy Lasack:Fiction. That's fiction. Think we talked about that
Erin Shaw:Effectively, yeah, it's not the same. Nothing that fades that in person connection.
Amy Lasack:That's fantastic. So if each of you had to tell our listeners one small thing they can take and practice leading with empathy, what would each of you share with our listeners?
Emily Logan:Oh boy, Erin, you're gonna go first?
Erin Shaw:I'll go first. I'll just give people a starting point, and that is the book Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It's definitely a place that I learned some of the beginnings of empathetic leadership skills and the way that she frames it, especially in higher education is extremely applicable. But it gave me the first tools. She does have a new book out that builds on those principles and it looks great but I haven't read it.
Erin Shaw:So I will say you need a place to start and you're thinking this sounds like something you're willing to do, know, highly encourage you to start with Dare to Lead. And then also just realize that it takes time and it takes intention. And so every day, just pick something that you wanna work on to be a little bit better, a better leader and go from there.
Amy Lasack:Great. Thank you, Emily.
Emily Logan:Yeah. I love that. And I would say get yourself an errand. Like, for me, I've got people in my life who I talk to about this stuff. I am so fortunate.
Emily Logan:I have a group of people who we we just talk about this stuff. And we talk about how it's hard and we talk about where we make mistakes and we talk about what we wanna do better and we talk about things that we're learning together. And so find some people in your life that you can have real conversations with and have them hold you accountable. You know, have them be someone that you can go to and say, you know, I think I might have messed this up and I want to do this better. Can I talk to you about what I did or what I said or what I didn't do or what I didn't say, and how I felt about it?
Emily Logan:Have people. Get a person, or at least try to start that process because that to me has made a big difference. It's it's get it out of just what's going on in here and make it relational.
Amy Lasack:Well, I wanna thank both of you for this conversation. I feel like we could probably have a part two, three, and four on on this particular topic. So maybe we'll bring you both back here in a few months, but thank you both so much for joining us today. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you.
Amy Lasack:So if there's one thing I've learned during this episode, it's that leadership isn't about having all the answers, but it's more about willingness to listen, understand and meet people where they are. So thank you to everyone who spent time listening us today on The Catalyst. Until next time. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Catalyst. If you enjoyed the conversation, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode.
Amy Lasack:Want to learn more about NICC and the many ways we support our students, partners, and community? Visit nicc.edu for more resources and upcoming opportunities. This podcast is produced by Northeast Iowa Community College and hosted by me, Amy Lasack, with executive producer Tessa Hill, producer Travis Hunt, and graphic designer Ashley Konzen.