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Amy Lasack
Welcome to The Catalyst, an exciting and insightful podcast produced by Northeast Iowa Community College. I'm your host, Amy Lasik. Together, we'll explore the people, programs, and partnerships that make Northeast Iowa Community College unique. From student success stories to behind the scenes info about athletics, innovation and industry collaboration. Each episode dives deeper into your community's college. Get ready for an inside look at the impact of community driven education at Nic.
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Amy Lasack
We want to welcome our guest, Erin Shaw, to our episode. Doctor Erin Shaw is a resilient leader who thrives on solving problems, learning continuously, encouraging others, and connecting people and ideas. She holds a PhD in Educational Leadership and Policy Analysis from the University of Missouri, and has held several senior academic leadership roles at multiple community colleges. Erin is currently the Strategic Planning Project Manager at Northeast Iowa Community College.
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Amy Lasack
Welcome, Erin, to The Catalyst.
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Erin Shaw
Thank you so much for having me.
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Amy Lasack
Great. So today we're talking our episode is about soft skills. And so I want to talk to you a little bit about what they are, how important they are in today's workplace. And really, let's just start with the term soft skills. Some people prefer calling them real skills. Why is that? And does the shift in languaging make any difference at all?
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Erin Shaw
Sure. I am one of those people that prefers to call soft skills real skills. It comes from the author, Seth Godin. He is one of the people that, has kind of promoted that idea. And it's because soft skills aren't, easy at all. They're they're hard to do, and they require practice and attention. And they're also essential so that that just makes them, you know, they make a real difference in the workforce.
00;01;58;14 - 00;02;24;08
Erin Shaw
And in your everyday life, even at home with your family and your spouse. So that's why I think, I prefer real skills. And then another reason is just sometimes, by calling them soft, they end up diminished or tied to only roles that might be considered soft. And again, any role can benefit from these kinds of skills.
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Amy Lasack
So for those that aren't familiar with the terminology of soft skills or real skills, what what does that contain? What sort of topics or areas of concentration would that revolve around?
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Erin Shaw
Sure, some of them are hard to measure. But nonetheless essential. So similar. Some of them could be like communication, teamwork, being able to troubleshoot or problem solve, adaptable. Right now, of course, you know things are changing at an alarming rate. So being open to change, being willing to even consider things changing. Those are key soft skills or real skills.
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Erin Shaw
Critical thinking. Being able to manage your time, that's another one that employers really value.
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Amy Lasack
A wide variety of things. Things that you don't necessarily think of, of taking a particular class when you're in, in school. But when you do think about the technical skills and the soft skills and how they work together on the job, why, why or soft skills sometimes really what it takes to get people further in their career.
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Erin Shaw
I think kind of going back to it's how you can, really make a difference. So employers might be hiring you for your technical skills, for what you're able to do on the job, but they also are hoping that you're going to work. You're going to play nice with others, right? That you're going to work as a team.
00;03;51;03 - 00;04;12;24
Erin Shaw
You're going to be willing to listen to their instructions and feedback that they give you. There's going to be all these other expectations that may or may not be part of the job description. And so really thinking about, those are areas that you can improve yourself. They might be willing to teach you how to weld a certain way.
00;04;12;26 - 00;04;36;12
Erin Shaw
That they want you to do it a specific way. Right. Or, how they want you to talk to, customer. But being able to go one more and, and just add a little bit more to your organization, to your team. Being on time to work is going to keep your job and managing your time so you can finish projects on deadline.
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Erin Shaw
Those are all examples of ways that, soft skills would be a key part of your job, but also something that, that they that you can develop yourself and continue to get better at and learn.
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Amy Lasack
It's such a big part of teamwork, the ability to get along, the ability to communicate. Can you talk a little bit about how essential that really is to develop a strong team and the trust that's needed? There?
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Erin Shaw
Yeah, I think the, you know, when you're thinking about your team, at least I'll just for myself, I really try to think of the strengths that each team member brings. When you're assembling a team and kind of deciding what each person would work on and so, being able to understand that about your team, but then also work with them to develop and strengthen the different skills that they might need help with.
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Erin Shaw
So that's where with soft skills being something that you can learn, it's not a talent that you, we're just occurring. It's not occurring naturally for you. Then you can get better at things and you could, bring more to a team or, have people do some training to get better at certain skills to complement what you're trying to get done as a group.
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Erin Shaw
And it really one of the things about soft skills, too, is I feel like you can feel the difference when you are working with someone or interacting with someone who has strong soft skills and or real skills. And, it just takes us human interactions to the next level. And so if you think about, thoughtful or caring customer service, the times that you've received that you can think in your head what that felt like and how good you felt and what that interaction was like.
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Erin Shaw
A guarantee that person had really strong soft skills to deliver that kind of experience for you. Another, you know, supervisors that can make you feel valued as an employee. Another key part of being on a team, right, is just feeling valued for your contributions. And, and then being able to motivate others on your team by offering help and support.
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Erin Shaw
Those are other forms of soft skills. I think.
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Amy Lasack
Yeah, but that's really powerful when you think about it that way, is how that might make somebody feel, and that you can really feel the value of soft skills as you're interacting with folks. And I imagine that really is kind of at the basis of building that trust.
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Erin Shaw
And I love that there's a quote that one of the things that made me like go down a rabbit hole with, with all of this with soft skills and trying to improve my own ability to, lead others with empathy and courage and vulnerability. For example, was a quote from Maya Angelou that it's the one about, at the end of the day, people won't remember what you said or did, but they will remember how you made them feel.
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Erin Shaw
And that one just really stays with me about how to, continually think about, you know, when you're in an interaction with another person, with your employee who comes in to, you know, ask a question or run something by you taking the time to, like, fully shift your focus to that person and give them your undivided attention instead of just, working away at your email and look over and like, oh, what do you need?
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Erin Shaw
You know. So being able to, like, fully, there's another author who talks about it as swiveling your chair like a very tangible, physical thing you do. But to that person on the receiving end, again, they can just feel that, like now they have your attention and your your focus and listening, which are also soft skills.
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Amy Lasack
It's such a big deal, you know, just a personal story. I just I just got done traveling to Japan and, the security at the airport in Japan. And the stark difference from that to what you find in the United States, that the the feeling that we got when we were in Japan was very customer ized. And let us hold your hand to help you get through this.
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Amy Lasack
We'll walk you to your gate. And then our first interaction at, TSA in Dallas was keep moving, keep moving. Go on. You know, so that feeling, part of it does really make a big impact on on how somebody is perceiving things and how they might react back to you.
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Erin Shaw
Yeah, for sure.
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Amy Lasack
So why for a leader? For a manager. You talked a little bit about the fact that soft skills or these real skills are things that you can build upon. You can go through training, you can work on them to get better. Can you talk a little bit about that and and maybe your journey through identifying some of the things that you've seen.
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Erin Shaw
Of course. Let's see. So if you think about, You know, leaders have the opportunity to model these skills for their employees and I also think, they have the opportunity to communicate what their needs are. As, as a business, if you have certain expectations about customer service, for example, being able to communicate that to your employees of what you what dun looks like or what good customer service, for example, would look like is really important.
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Erin Shaw
And then so leaders have the opportunity to, really model what they're looking for, acting with empathy, for example, or, you know, being willing to admit mistakes or, be vulnerable in a situation with their employees. And then also just that, No one's perfect, right? That these are all things that we're always working on and trying to develop.
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Erin Shaw
Those are some thoughts I had there. Yeah.
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Amy Lasack
Yeah. That's that's so hard because I think a lot of times we are instilled with trying to get to that level of perfection. So being able and vulnerable enough to, to accept that and to share that can be a really big thing and a key part of those real skills.
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Erin Shaw
Yeah, I completely agree.
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Amy Lasack
So I think for a lot of people that there's an assumption that these soft skills are just part of your personality, and it's not something you're going to be able to change. What are your thoughts on that?
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Erin Shaw
I believe that anybody can change these soft skills, that it's not just part of your personality. That they definitely can be learned and improved upon. The hardest thing, though, is that it does take intention and practice, and that is that is why they're so hard. I mean, you can't call them hard skills. I get it. But it it would be appropriate because you have to prioritize it as, as an individual, you know.
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Erin Shaw
And so if somebody says that, they can't be trained or they can't learn, I think that they might just need to practice some curiosity about why that might be and reflect on, what's keeping them from being open to, to learning about it from a different perspective and considering how you might be able to, approach something differently because some of this stuff is not, you know, some of it's could be scary stuff to people.
00;12;33;00 - 00;12;56;12
Erin Shaw
So public speaking, for example, you know, tons of people are afraid of public speaking, but it's definitely something you can learn to do and get better at. For me, public speaking, I might still be quaking. You know, when I'm up there, there's definitely times where I am, like, visibly shaking in my boots. But with practice, it continues to get easier, you know?
00;12;56;12 - 00;13;20;21
Erin Shaw
And, and even, you know, for this podcast, and trying to prepare for things like this, like, these are all things that you're stepping outside of your comfort zone a little bit. But that, again, is just another way that you're developing those soft skills is is being able to, manage uncertainty is another type of soft skill.
00;13;20;23 - 00;13;47;24
Amy Lasack
And I'm sure and in your travels with different educational institutions and different positions you've held, you've seen really good examples of somebody that's self-aware and, exploring and showing great soft skills. And examples of times where you're like, ooh, maybe that that isn't the best way to handle that. Can you share some insights? And what does that look like when somebody is showing really good soft skills?
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Erin Shaw
Sure. Thanks for letting me talk about good examples.
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Amy Lasack
They're always more fun.
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Erin Shaw
Yeah, exactly. Sometimes harder to think about, though, right? No, I I've had it. So a couple of times it's been with colleagues, for example. I had one, for example, who was an exceptional listener. And he and and honestly, tied to Nick doctor we is also he's been my mentor for years and he has modeled really strong listening skills for me for so long.
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Erin Shaw
I just absorb as much as I can from him each time I get to meet with him. But when someone can listen to you and really make you feel seen and appreciated and, and like, you know that they have nowhere to be. They have nothing else to do. They're just there with you in that moment. It is so powerful.
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Erin Shaw
And, so that's one that I am continuously working on is with, listening and really making people feel seen and valued. Some of the others are, are even just feeling supported when you, When you're trying to develop your different skills. So wanting to get better at public speaking or, wanting to, you know, some of the, trying to think of, you know, other examples, but, but some of those opportunities.
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Erin Shaw
So having a supervisor maybe recognize some opportunities for you to.
00;15;38;14 - 00;16;06;09
Erin Shaw
Do a public speaking role that isn't high stakes, you know, ease into it. Some of those kind of opportunities so that sponsorship so that you get some safe opportunities. And then one more, that I would share is just as a leader, create an environment where it's safe to fail or to make mistakes. And that is something that that you can do.
00;16;06;09 - 00;16;23;11
Erin Shaw
And, and I've had leaders who have done that well and who have not done that well, but that's another great one where if you feel like you can like, run an idea up the flagpole and talk to them about something and be like, hey, I have this really great idea and you're not going to get shot down that that's really powerful, right?
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Erin Shaw
Like you, you just feel so empowered and excited and motivated to work on something. And so that's another one that, you know, creating that safe space for people to try and experiment and innovate, and be willing to fail and, have that safety net have that support. If they do fail, that it's not, it's not a failure, honestly.
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Erin Shaw
It's just another, way of looking at things.
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Amy Lasack
I love that I love the thought of, being able to create that safe space so that people can expand their skill set and feel, feel empowered to do so. You mentioned something earlier, too, that I thought was really, really great was the the thought of active listening and that piece of the real skills. I think a lot of people, when they think of soft skills or the real skills, they, they think more of verbal skills, communication skills, conflict management, those types of things.
00;17;22;13 - 00;17;36;17
Amy Lasack
I think listening sometimes gets a backseat to that. And you talked a little bit about that, something that you're actively working on. Can you talk a little bit about your, your experience and and how are you actively working on that? What sort of things are you implementing?
00;17;36;20 - 00;18;10;05
Erin Shaw
So the, the, the main thing I'm trying to do is practice in meetings or in, you know, either one on one or in group settings, practice not speaking first, practice really trying to listen. It is hard. I definitely am a I'm a connector who likes to, like, jump in and like, oh yeah, yeah. You know, I like, have those interactions and so I would say it's still a work in progress, but that's okay.
00;18;10;08 - 00;18;39;27
Erin Shaw
One day at a time. But that's one that in a group setting trying to be sure, like I hold my tongue, try to listen longer. I had there is a great presenter. I went to a leadership institute, a year ago, and one of the presidents who is presenting had a great line. He said, you get to make the final decision as the president of or the leader of an organization, so you can sit there and listen to everybody else's ideas.
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Erin Shaw
You don't have to be the first one to talk, because I love let them share all of their ideas. You still get to decide at the end of the day, if you want to do what you want to do, that's your choice. So you have no reason to talk first or talk over the other people you know. Let them all get their ideas out and be part of the decision making process.
00;18;59;08 - 00;19;14;03
Erin Shaw
But I thought it was funny that that was a good point. Like at the end of the day, if you really are like set on what you want to do, you can make that decision. But how you go about making that decision and including others can be so much more powerful and inclusive. Right?
00;19;14;05 - 00;19;25;00
Amy Lasack
So and you might change your mind, you might hear something along the way. But if you gave your idea first, sometimes as a leader to if you give your idea first, everybody's like, okay, well we're just going to go along with that.
00;19;25;02 - 00;19;25;12
Erin Shaw
Yeah.
00;19;25;12 - 00;19;28;05
Amy Lasack
So taking that moment is so powerful.
00;19;28;05 - 00;20;02;03
Erin Shaw
And that's another there's a couple techniques. So Brené Brown Stair to lead book is a key, resource that I have used for, leading with empathy and learning all these skills. But she talks about even on, on your zoom conference calls trying to minimize she because of the halo effect. So when a leader speaks first or someone who might whose views might be, considered higher ranking than others in that group, if they speak first, then it does sometimes shut down communication or people are like, yeah, I'll go with that.
00;20;02;03 - 00;20;26;15
Erin Shaw
Sure. That sounds good. So what she'll do is have that's why you use the zoom chat. For example, if you have people simultaneously put in their thoughts, you don't get the halo effect. Or you can call on people and, do certain orders of things, but but that's spontaneous. Like hold up a sticky note in a meeting or, type into the zoom chat.
00;20;26;15 - 00;20;38;21
Erin Shaw
If you're on zoom, or on virtual, then those are some ways that you can can avoid that. Like get everyone spontaneous thoughts without critique and, and that halo effect.
00;20;38;23 - 00;21;03;06
Amy Lasack
Love that. Without critique. Yeah. That's fantastic. I think, too, one of the things I've noticed is, what I'm going to call the cell phone effect. Right. And active listening and making sure you're in the moment. You talked about being in the moment. And so we have so many distractions. Now, if you're on a zoom meeting, your email pops up or your phone's dinging or something.
00;21;03;09 - 00;21;14;05
Amy Lasack
Have you found that as you're working on active listening and being in the moment? Any tips or tricks on how to relieve those distractions?
00;21;14;08 - 00;21;40;09
Erin Shaw
I will do one. Right now, I can still see my cell phone out of the corner of my eye. The number one thing I do is I put it out of sight. Like put it behind you completely put it out of sight. Because. And it's also on silent right now, of course, for the podcast recording. But in general, having your phone anywhere in your peripheral vision will make you subliminally think about it.
00;21;40;12 - 00;22;04;10
Erin Shaw
And whether you have a message that's waiting for you. I do turn off all, any notifications like on my work computer, for example, so things aren't popping up constantly about new emails or about, different reminders. My zoom chat, for example, will change color, but it won't put big windows up all over my screen. And, and then same with my phone.
00;22;04;10 - 00;22;24;14
Erin Shaw
I try to, you know, I do a lot of, deep work. So times when, I really need to focus on a single task. And so being able to, mute your phone, for example, during that time and, really focus close other windows on your computer, you can do things like that to help with the distraction as well.
00;22;24;16 - 00;22;47;23
Erin Shaw
But those are some, some ways. And then again, that, that swivel your chair idea. It's from, John Ameche is the author, and he, that includes putting down your phone and your Apple Watch, you know, like, don't be talking to someone and then be like, oh, this is like, let me just respond on my phone or my watch.
00;22;47;23 - 00;23;03;26
Erin Shaw
You know, anytime you're, anytime you're looking at your phone or reading messages on your watch, you're not actively engaged in listening to the person right in front of you. And so, yeah, those are just some tips to give them your undivided attention.
00;23;03;28 - 00;23;27;08
Amy Lasack
I know Nick works with a variety of different employers, with a lot of the technical skills they're needing, but also works with them for a lot of the soft skills. Are these real skills. And also with our students in the classroom, right. There's things that we're doing to help them, because that's what we're hearing from employers, is they want employees that have not only the technical skills, but some of the soft skills.
00;23;27;10 - 00;23;36;09
Amy Lasack
In your work in higher education. How are you seeing that being incorporated into higher education with our students?
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Erin Shaw
I think it varies, based on, you know, how you know, the discipline or kind of how people are, how receptive they are to to you teaching it themselves or to being, allowing it in their curriculum. But I would say, what I have seen is, you know, in colleges, there's usually an orientation class and some kind of introduction or orientation itself, maybe a day or a week of kind of meetings and onboarding and training for how to go to college just as much as they might have for going to, work and so in those moments, there's that opportunity to kind of communicate to a student, you know, how we do
00;24;25;01 - 00;24;45;07
Erin Shaw
things and, what they can expect and kind of how they need to communicate with us and how well communicate with them. And we're kind of modeling some of those pieces. So if we're showing good customer service, for example, when we're doing student services, then they're going to start to see like, oh, that's what good customer service looks like.
00;24;45;10 - 00;25;14;12
Erin Shaw
And then they might actually have a class on customer service, for example, or on sales or on marketing, and start learning more the technical skills of it. But we can do a lot as a college, just modeling it and in the regular interactions that we have. And then in those intro classes and in those interest orientations, we can start to talk about like responsibility, time management, communication, how to how to communicate with your instructors and employees around campus.
00;25;14;14 - 00;25;43;24
Erin Shaw
And then, we also have the opportunity to continue to develop, certificates or kind of one off training opportunities. And I mean, certainly customized business training from your side of things. But, even so, I know a couple of years ago we worked on some different online modules. But now if there's the interest, we can add those online modules about real skills onto, and any course honestly that they want it on.
00;25;43;26 - 00;25;56;17
Erin Shaw
But we can also just offer it to as a micro credential, right, to any student who just wants to have a certificate that says that they have developed these real skills. Those are some examples that come to mind.
00;25;56;20 - 00;26;09;15
Amy Lasack
Yeah. And even some of the extracurricular things that many students participate in, there's lots of opportunity to have some of that communication and interaction, in addition to the things that are learning in the classroom, for sure.
00;26;09;15 - 00;26;34;05
Erin Shaw
And I know, you know, Phi Theta Kappa is always good at that. You know, it's teaching a lot of leadership skills along with membership in the organization for those officers. But also, you know, adding athletics for year, that's going to be great opportunities for, for people to, those those athletes to, you know, some of them are going to be the leaders of that team as captains, for example.
00;26;34;08 - 00;26;50;29
Erin Shaw
Or they might be volunteering in their community and starting to practice those interpersonal relations in that way. And certainly on athletic teams, you have to communicate in a lot of sports, with your teammates. So for baseball and softball, they're going to get some of that on the field.
00;26;51;01 - 00;27;18;22
Amy Lasack
Absolutely. But I think if if there's anything that I've learned in the last 30 minutes in our conversation, Erin, is there really isn't a part of your life where there isn't soft skills or real skills? We're going to try to change that, that name where you're not going to need that, and you're whether you're a student in the classroom or a manager at work or a mom or a husband or an aunt or whatever, those are skills that are going to get you further because it makes people feel better.
00;27;18;22 - 00;27;22;18
Amy Lasack
Right? That feeling piece of things is such a critical piece of.
00;27;22;18 - 00;27;24;27
Erin Shaw
It, for sure.
00;27;24;29 - 00;27;36;27
Amy Lasack
Well, believe it or not, we're out of time. So, Erin, I do want to thank you for today's episode and joining us and sharing your insights on soft or as we're going to start calling it Real Skills.
00;27;37;00 - 00;27;38;22
Erin Shaw
Thanks. That guy perspective.
00;27;38;24 - 00;27;47;02
Amy Lasack
Yeah. Your perspective and experience is really valuable. And I know our listeners are going to take a lot away from this conversation. So thank you again for joining us.
00;27;47;03 - 00;27;50;05
Erin Shaw
Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
00;27;50;07 - 00;28;22;05
Amy Lasack
Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Catalyst. If you enjoyed the conversation, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode! Want to learn more about Nick and the many ways we support our students, partners, and community? Visit Nick's Edu for more resources and upcoming opportunities. This podcast is produced by Northeast Iowa Community College and hosted by Amy Lasik with producer Tessa Hill, audio engineer Andrew Saunders, story editor Doug Roper, and graphic designer Ashley Johnson.